Homosexuality and the Bible

This article on CNN Belief blog, My Take: The Bible’s surprisingly mixed messages on sexuality by Jennifer Wright Knaust, is an example of why I avoid Belief. I try to avoid near occasions of sin and situations that make my blood pressure soar.

It is not a reasoned argument, and it is condescending and patronizing to boot. No I am not impressed that she is a Bible scholar and has numerous letters after her name.

Besides, she teaches at the marginally Catholic University Boston College. Enough said.

A reader emailed me, however, and asked me to blog about it. So ok.

Knaust begins with:

“We often hears that Christians have no choice but to regard homosexuality as a sin – that Scripture simply demands it.

As a Bible scholar and pastor myself, I say that Scripture does no such thing.

“I love gay people, but the Bible forces me to condemn them” is a poor excuse that attempts to avoid accountability by wrapping a very particular and narrow interpretation of a few biblical passages in a cloak of divinely inspired respectability.”

From there, her argument goes downhill faster than an Olympic skier.

First let me state for the record that neither the Catholic Church nor the bible compels me to “condemn” homosexuality.  I am, however, called to speak out against homosexual activity. It is acting on homosexual impulses which are considered a grave sin (CCC 2257-2359).  It is also a grave sin for heterosexuals to engage in sex outside the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

Of course it is a much harder cross for homosexuals to bear, because, unlike unmarried heterosexuals, they have no recourse to marriage. That is why the Church reminds Christians to treat homosexuals with love, respect, and compassion.

We are called to invite all people including homosexuals to accept the truth of Jesus Christ.

Second, Jennifer Wright Knust makes the claim that the Genesis story makes it clear

“that God’s original intention for humanity was androgyny, not sexual differentiation and heterosexuality. Genesis includes two versions of the story of God’s creation of the human person. First, God creates humanity male and female and then God forms the human person again, this time in the Garden of Eden. The second human person is given the name Adam and the female is formed from his rib.”

This twist on the biblical creation account is new to me.  Mama’s don’t let your babies grow up to be Theologians or Biblical Scholars. Well at least not of the progressive persuasion.

She does not cite any sources except to say that  Ancient Christians and Jews explained the creation of human beings as she writes above. I guess we are to take her word for it. Okay she does mention the Gnostic Gospel of Philip and one third century rabbi.

There are two accounts of the creation of human beings in Genesis.

In Genesis 1:26-27

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”

God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

And in Genesis 2:21-25. God decides to make a partner for Adam:

So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.

The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man,

the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.”

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

The story that God created Eve from Adam’s side does not mean that Adam was a hermaphrodite, a dually sexed person. We can see from what follows, “and the two of them become one body, that this text points to the marriage of man and women.

Man and women are created complimentary. In married sexual union two become one and in a mystical way mirror the Holy Trinity. This is impossible for same sexed couples. The main attribute of God the Holy Trinity is love. Love cannot be sterile. It is always generating.

That is why in Genesis 1: 28, God tells Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply.

Yet Knust claims that God’s original plan was for sexual unity in one body not two. Oh and that androgynous body was not designed for sex at all. This is a clearly Gnostic heresy.

She then goes on to make the usual claim by people who think that love is always eros that David and Jonathan were lovers. The idea of fraternal non sexual love is beyond the grasp of such people.

Her argument goes on to claim that the story of Lot and sons of God who lust after daughters of men. According to Knust New Testament writers (where, who citations please) “concluded that the mingling of human and divine flesh is an intolerable sin. Well angels are pure spirits although they can appear as humans.

Oh and ever hear of the incarnation. You know Jesus is true God and true Man.

Finally, yes Jennifer Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. He was speaking to Jews who prohibited homosexual acts unlike their pagan neighbors. It simply wasn’t an issue.

But Jesus did define marriage as between a man and a woman.

“Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” (Mt. 19:4-6)

John Paul II’s Theology of the Body should be must reading for any Christian who wants to understand human sexuality. EWTN has it online here.

About Susan Kehoe

I am the wife of a Catholic deacon living in Des Moines Iowa. My husband Larry was ordained in 2006. We have two children and five grandchildren.. Our daughter and her family live in Ireland, and our son and his family live in Franklin Massachusetts.
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36 Responses to Homosexuality and the Bible

  1. john r says:



  2. john r says:

    you are confusing gender with orientation, and there is no ” only” in genesis. heterosexuality and homosexuality are both about human bonding, bonding out of mutual love, affection, devotion, respect and trust for a shared commited life together. you are attempting to project rules of physicality, regulation, about human bonding.

    however under the new covenant we do not have a relationaship to god thru regulation as in deut 28, but instead directly to the spirit(triune god)(the light) that lives in each believer(torn curtain).

    the standard of the new covenant, god’s best is christ’s love, his godlove as directed by the 2nd commandment(love neighbor). scripture says this love is the summation of all new covenant law. because is the fulfillment, the completion of the law, the completion of its purpose, is love. paul says the law, which is apart from god’s righteousness, is to make believers “conscious” of not godloving self and neighbor. but its christ’s love that “transcends all knowledge” (law) that determines what the law is and what it says.(the woman caught in adultry was sent away forgiven, and not stoned)

    being gay does not come against either the godlove of the 2nd commandment(love neighbor) or the fruit of the spiritgal5 of his love.

    god is love. 1john god is spirit. john god’s spirit is love

    “what is not against us is for us”mark


  3. Susan Kehoe says:

    John R,
    First, I am not arguing on the basis of orientation. Sex, in a Catholic Christian context is reserved for marriage. All sex out side the sacrament of holy matrimony, for both heterosexuals and homosexuals, is a grave sin. But there is no such thing as same sex marriage in Catholic teaching.

    Second male-female complementarity is essential to marriage. The creation accounts tell us that both sexes are essential to God’s plan. John Paul II said that this is evident from the form of male and female body. That is why he called his teaching “Theology of the Body”.

    The purpose of marriage is the unity of the male and female and the procreation of children. Married love points to the Holy Trinity. God’s love is not sterile. It is always generating, always creating. Same sex acts are always sterile.

    Third, when Jesus said that the two greatest commandments were to love God and love our neighbor, he was summing up the 10 commandments. He was not saying that we should no longer follow them.

    The Gospel for this Sunday’s Mass reading has Jesus adding to the meaning of the commandments http://www.usccb.org/nab/021311.shtml#gospel .

    Finally, while Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery, he admonished her “to go and sin no more.” The love Jesus calls us to is to conform to God’s will and transformation of our hearts.

    The Catholic Bishops have an extensive FYI which explains marriage, and why same sex unions are not here http://www.usccb.org/defenseofmarriage/faqs.shtml#sd2 . If you sincerely want to try and understand Catholic teaching–so at least you know what your are disagreeing with, I encourage you to take the time to read it.
    Thank you for your comment. God Bless,


  4. john r says:

    anyone is entitled to follow whatever teaching they choose, without recrimination. but whether it is of christ is another matter. just because something is characterized as catholic does mean it is of christ.

    first of all, the gay couples in my church marry. and their lives and and marriages are filled with the fruit of the spiritgal5 in the same way as those of heterosexual believers. according to scripture for something to be a sin it must come against the godlove of the 2nd commandment.

    in regards to loving god. some believers think that loving god means obeying their interpretation of the law. scripture says one cannot love god unless he is loving his brother also1john4:20. in other words one cannot do the first ccomandment unless he is doing the other also.

    is love burdening another person with their understanding of the law? why would burdening someone with something that was apart from righteousness, be righteousness, which is christ’s love.

    scripture says that the law is ONLY a shadow of things to come but not the realities themselves heb10. the realities are christ’s love. why would believers share the shadow of the light, which is the aBSERNCE OF CHRIST’S LOVE WHRN THEY CAN SHARE THE LOVE ITSELF.]==================


  5. john r says:

    reedit…computer problem

    scripture says that the law is ONLY a shadow of things to come but not the realities themselves heb10. the realities are christ’s love. why would believers share the shadow of the light, which is the absence of christ’s love, when they can share his love, the light, itself, the light that lives in each believer.

    how does following a regulation have anything to do with loving ones brother?

    scripture says that anything without love is nothing and gains nothing. there are million reasons to follow an understanding of the law, and not one of them is love.

    in godloving one’s neighbor, one does more than automatically follow the law, he fulfills it, as christ did. christ who said follow me.


  6. john r says:

    ” The creation accounts tell us that both sexes are essential to God’s plan.” both sexes are essential for procreation of any mammal species.

    but god is not dependent on physicalities………………” god can make these stones into the sons of abraham”

    surely god’s concern is not about physicalities but what is in ones heart.

    of what goodness, is even in an earthly father’s relationship, if his concern is about physicalities concerning his children, over what is in their heart? why would our relationship with our heavenly father be any different?

    ” The purpose of marriage is the unity of the male and female and the procreation of children.”
    what is more important than procreation, is who will provide a loving nurturing home for raising children which has been evidenced by the gay couples who have opened their homes to abandoned,rejected children of heterosexual unions, an act that was born out of the devoted, committed love the gay couple had for each other.


  7. Susan Kehoe says:

    My husband and I have a rare free night to spend together. I don’t want to blow you off. Let’s continue in the morning.
    God Bless,


  8. john r says:

    fantastic for you ….see you then!


  9. john r says:

    dear susan

    i read your references.

    so what are the differences of physicality between men and women compared to those of same sex couples would make one bonding superior to the other according to christ’s love, so much so that one would be of god and the other a sin.

    all the words in those references pointed to one thing………………………belief system. belief systems are centered around those that have them ” i believe this ” ” i dont believe that” while what is centered around christ is “loving one another as i have loved you” as directed by the 2nd commandment.

    scripture directs an approach that is apart from belief system to determine what is real. it directs a 1john1 fellowship witness, that is up front, close and personnal that involves touching, emotionally, physically, and spiritually in sharing the oneness of christ’s spirit with each other, so that we who ” see only in part thru a poor reflection” can see what god has made through the spirit that lives in us.

    dont you find it peculiar that those who have never been gay choose to define christ’s love, as telling those who are gay what it is like to be gay, and refuse to trust the hearts of those who are gay to truthfully speak what that experience is about. and all this out of belief system, and nothing about owning what is witnessed in their hearts. that somehow doctrine should trump even the christ love they have for each other. christ’s love being the basis of all relationships, be they friendships, sibling relationships, marriages, sibling parent, neighbor with neighbor etc.

    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    that god has made gay people to have christ’s love in their lives and marriages, in the same way as with those who are heterosexual.

    you may say what about the scriptures? scripture says ” christ’s love transcends all knowledge” , that” the sons of god are led by the spirit of god(christ’s love)” . that it is his love that shows what scriptures say, rather than human belief system.

    your brother in christ, john


  10. Susan Kehoe says:

    Good Morning John,
    I am working on a reply. It might take some time, prayer, and another pot of coffee -:).

    God Bless, and thank you for your patience.


  11. Susan Kehoe says:

    Dear John,
    First thank you for not being hostile to an opposing view point. You are quite unique. Your civility is appreciated.

    Dear John R,
    No I am not centering myself around a belief system—an ideology. At the heart of everything lies a person, Jesus Christ who is true God and true man. All revelation and all truth comes through Jesus Christ.

    The Catholic Church is not just an institution. It is the Church founded by Jesus Christ. He is the head and we are his body. Jesus gave all authority to Peter, the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles:

    Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    This means that in the matter of faith and morals, the Pope in union with the Bishops cannot err. That is why, even in earlier times when we had bad Popes and sinful bishops, the teaching of the Church has not changed. The Church is holy even though it’s members sin.

    But the teachings of Jesus, the teachings of the Church are not just a set of do’s and don’ts. All teaching is grounded in love. The entire concern of doctrine is directed to the love that never ends.

    So everyone has the false freedom to follow whatever they choose, but our choices have consequences in the next life. We choose heaven or we choose hell.

    I suspect that you and I have a very different idea of love. Real Christian love is unconditional, but it is not unconditional approval of everything.

    Sin is real. Sin is deadly. Sin is slavery. Jesus told us this again and again.

    You quote St. Paul in Romans 1: 20. But Paul is talking to Gentiles, pagans, unbelievers. He is telling them that there is no excuse for not knowing God because we can now that there is a God from human reason—through creation. Paul knows that God and the 10 commandments are written in the human heart; it is in our spiritual DNA.

    You asked, don’t you find it peculiar that those who have never been gay choose to define Christ’s love, as telling those who are gay what it is like to be gay, and refuse to trust the hearts of those who are gay to truthfully speak what that experience is about.”

    Well I don’t know what it like to be gay and act on the impulse. But I do know what it is like to be attracted to grave sin and act on it. If it was not for God’s great mercy and the sacrament of confession, I do not think that I could breathe.

    As a wife of a deacon and a lay minister I know that there is way too much pain in the pews.

    I have also spoken to, and read about, people who are homosexual and who are striving to live a difficult life as a chaste Christian.

    God did not create people to be homosexuals. It happened because of Original Sin. All of us, because of original sin, have a attraction to sin. We are a fallen people.

    But Jesus called us to take up our cross and follow him. It is through him that we can overcome our attraction to sin.

    Jesus never said we would not be burdened. Quite the contrary. He is the truth and the way. He says it over and over again. He also tells us that in order to follow him, we have to take up our cross. In John Gospel he tell us that “ the world will hate us as it hated him. In the Beatitudes following the Commandments involves suffering. Blessed are the poor, the persecuted…

    None of us is without a cross. Most of us are attracted to sin. Most of us are very attached to a particular sin. But sin is slavery and we are called by Jesus to overcome slavery.

    Where we got this moral relativism of anything goes is beyond me. If you really study the Gospels, you realize that the love of Jesus is indeed tough love. Nothing that he says is easy for any of us to hear and live.

    John the problem we have in this discussion is that to love does not have the same meaning for you as it does for me. Love, for me, does not mean doing what you want. God calls me to something higher than that.

    Freedom and choice is not a value free consequence free good A fish might fight to be free of the sea. But freedom, for the fish, results in death.
    As a Christian I know that I am but a traveler on this earthly realm. My true home is heaven. But I might not get there if I don’t follow He who is Truth and Love.


  12. Susan Kehoe says:

    Typo alert:
    “Freedom and choice is not a value free consequence free good A fish might fight to be free of the sea. But freedom, for the fish, results in death.”

    Should be:
    Lets try that again. Freedom and choice is not value free. They result in consequences. A fish might fight to be free of the sea. But freedom for the fish results in death.


  13. john r says:

    ” I suspect that you and I have a very different idea of love. Real Christian love is unconditional, but it is not unconditional approval of everything.”

    but where christ’s love is, is what is of god. the spirit goes where it will. it is not controlled by what is apart from righteousness.

    if the lives and marriages of gay believers are filled with the fruit of the spirit of christ in the same way as those of heterosexual believers, then being gay is of god.

    would you say that those whose lives and marriages held murder, adultery, and thievery as being good and of god were filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as those who did not…………of course not. because then you would have to say that the fruit of the spirit of christ was the same as those of powers and principalities.


    • Susan Kehoe says:

      Righteousness in scripture–both Old and New Testament means being holy before God. It means being obedient.

      What do you mean by the fruit of the spirit of Christ ?


  14. john r says:

    ” But the teachings of Jesus, the teachings of the Church are not just a set of do’s and don’ts. All teaching is grounded in love. The entire concern of doctrine is directed to the love that never ends.”

    all teaching that is of christ is his love. his love is not an addendum. what is of christ IS his love. god is love. what is of his love is christ.

    again the sons of god are led by the spirit of god.romans

    are you saying that the catholic church’s unchallengable laws about homosexuality are christ? are christ’s love?

    col1: 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


    • Susan Kehoe says:

      “are you saying that the catholic church’s unchallengable laws about homosexuality are christ? are christ’s love?”

      Yes. God’s love is truth. Jesus said he is the Truth. Truth does not change from age to age. It also means that my sins are still sins. The fact that it is 2011 does not change that.

      It really comes down to that Christian love is very different that what the secular world understands as love.

      In scripture there are three words in Greek for love: philios brotherly, Eros passionate, and agape self giving love. In the New Testament Jesus uses the word agape. Agape love is self giving always putting the other before yourself. Jesus showed us agape love by dying on the cross.

      Christian love can not be divorced from the cross. I


  15. john r says:

    ” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. ”

    it wasnt what was of peter that christ built his church, but what wqas received thru him from heaven.

    and yes in the beginning the church grew out of the authority of spirit thru peter, who was head of the first church the church of jerusalem. and the church thru that spirit of authority continued to grow, even when the protestant churches chose to split creating a different earthly head the what had been received from heaven continued to grow in them in christ.

    it is this same spirit received from heaven that the body of christ continues to grow.

    scripture says that paul was not taught thru the apostles but directly from christ, but it was thru the authority thru peter that he set out created other churches.

    the institution is not the church, but the body of believers who confess that christ is their savior. having received that authority continue to grow the church thru the spirit that originally came thru peter.“You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”


  16. Susan Kehoe says:

    The Protestant Churches did not come about until the Reformation in 1517. Since then they have not been united by the Holy Spirit. Disagreements lead to more and more splitting of the body of Christ. In the Gospel of John, chapter 17, Jesus prayed that we all would be one. Alas we are quite fractured.

    Paul, after his conversion– his meeting Christ– he was baptized and he , spent time with Peter.

    The Church is the body of believers who are the body of Christ. Christ is the head. The spirit of truth guides the truth, but as scripture says Jesus is the truth and truth can not contradict itself.

    FYI John, I answered your other comments individually.
    God Bless,


  17. john r says:

    the other apostles went out to places like egypt and india and grew churches that were as fruitful, but never established a direct link to the catholic church.

    the growth of believers in asia has no direct link to the catholic church. why would you think that their faith in christ is any less than that of catholics.

    you are taking an interpretation of one verse and then are using this understanding to trump all other verses of scripture.

    consider instead of trumping, look a spirit of understanding where all verses complement each other.


  18. john r says:

    ” Paul, after his conversion– his meeting Christ– he was baptized and he , spent time with Peter. ”

    gal1: 11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
    13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

    18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[b] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

    21 Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they praised God because of me.


  19. john r says:

    paul did not teach thru the law not even with the man who had his father’s wife.


  20. john r says:

    with paul it was about grace and choosing those things that were of the spirit of christ, the fruit of his spirit…………………………………..love, joy, peace, kindness, patience, gentleness,self-control, goodness, and faithfulness.


  21. Susan Kehoe says:

    Good Morning John,
    I have to go teach a class and then go to Mass. I will try and comment this after noon.
    God Bless


  22. john r says:

    “are you saying that the catholic church’s unchallengable laws about homosexuality are christ? are christ’s love?”

    Yes. God’s love is truth.

    please show me in scripture where under the new covenant we are to be led by that which we are no longer under and is apart from god’s righteousness and even if we follow it we receive no righteousness, and scripture says ” was weakened by the sin nature”, christ’s love transcends,

    it is interesting that you would discount reason, yet feel very free to express your own reason.

    whatever reasoning you choose to accept becomes your own. being that it is catholic gives no excuse. once you choose to be led by it, you own it, it becomes yours and yours alone. can those of higher authority of the church go to christ and say i was complicit with the torture of the jews(inquisitions) because the church condoned it. my love for the jews was the interpretation of the law at that time, therefore i have an excuse.

    not according to romans 1:20.


  23. john r says:

    please excuse my lack of gentleness in my last comment. my point was that every violation of the love of the 2nd commandment throughout history has come over interpretation of the law, be it the church(body of christ) or secular society.

    fact that the halocaust was conducted in a christian country, worldwide antisemetism being at its height(first country to receive the bible in their own language(1500’s), was because the interpretation of law did not challenge it, even though it was a violation of love.


    • Susan Kehoe says:

      John, Sorry for taking so long to respond. Yesterday was a very long day, and I am wiped out. I think that we have taken the discussion down too many rabbit holes. So I am going to regroup and read over the discussion. Then I will write a post on it which will, I hope, be more ordered and concise. This will probably take a few days.

      Thank you for your time and patience. God Bless

      Susan Kehoe lpksmk@msn.com; blog: http://www.adeaconswife.wordpress.com cell: 515-988-8907


  24. john r says:

    romans7: 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

    if we have died to law and belong to another, how can what we are no longer bound to be what has set us free.

    galations 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    if we are led by the spirit, which transcends the law how the law be what it transcends.


  25. john r says:

    if scripture says that christ is the light(john) and the law is only the shadow of the light, of things to come, and not the realities themselves(heb), the the law is about what is not the light. what is the light, is determined by the light itself. that is why we are led by the spiirit and not the law. we are led what we are under, grace, which is also spirit, this is what leads us.

    throughout history believers at one time thought that the truth according to the law was……………………..2000 years of antisemetism reenforced thru multiple inquistions(7), deportations, genecides, the leader of the last inquistion was made pope, created a containment center for the jews 300 yds from the vatican, where they were denied all rights. it existed for 300 years until the liberation by italian republican army, that was battling against the vatican troops..( all this inspite of romans 9,10,11) 1700 years of burning witches at the stake, 800 years of practicing indulgences, 1700 years of condoning ethnic slavery overseen and directed by the church’s priests in the settled countries.

    but it was christ ‘s love which has convicted us that this was not the truth, because truth is in his love, in the spirit that set us free from the law.

    what is transcended does not determine what transcends it


  26. john r says:

    your understanding is that discussing the principles of the new covenant is a rabbit trail in regards to the issue of homosexuality. i would disagree. it is the spirit of the principles of the new covenant that say over and over that homosexuality is of god.


  27. Susan Kehoe says:

    No what I meant was that this discussion has become unwieldy. My responses have not been well ordered.

    I think that you are reading into scripture what you want to believe. Jesus always ties love to truth. At any rate how do you explain Romans 1:24-32?

    I will be putting up a new post on the subject.


  28. john r says:

    because you respond with church doctrine every time i attempt to discuss these principles suggests that that for you church doctrine trumps what is written in scripture. or you that only interested in scripture that could possibly support this doctrine. but scripture says all scripture is ” god breathed”. its not for us to ignore one scripture over another, butabout having an understanding where each complements the other.


  29. Susan Kehoe says:

    First there are many scripture alone Christian church’s who believe that homosexual acts are contrary to scripture. I believe, however, that all revelation comes from Christ through Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. It has been entrusted to the teaching office of the Church–the successors of the apostles to interpret God’s revelation. Scripture, Tradition, and the teaching office are the three legs of the stool.

    You suggest that I will only consider scripture that supports Church doctrine. But you ignore scripture that clearly does not support yours, Romans 1:24-32, for example.

    John it is clear that we will never agree. It is time to end this thread.
    May God bless you and keep you.


  30. john r says:

    they exchanged the truth of god’s love for a lie and worshipped and served the created , powers and princiupalities, and were given over to the things that served them……………………………………..shameful lust.

    18-32 the basis of all sin

    homosexuality isnt about shameful lust, shame lust can be in heterosexual relationships as well, they bond in the same way as heterosexuals out of mutual. love,respect, affection and trust for a shared committed life together.


  31. john r says:

    the things that are natural of god are about spirit , not about physicalities. god does not rely on physicalities” he can make sons of abraham out of these rocks”. do you think that our judgement would therefore be about what the physicalities we observed or the spirit we embraced in our hearts.

    gay believers lives and marriages are filled with the fruit ofthe spirit of gal5 in the same way as those of believing heterosexuals

    being gay is not about abandonment. the women in the lives of gays are their sisters mothers and friends where is there abandonmment in that. homosexuals have never desired to bond with the opposite sex since their earliest sexual memory. instead it has been with those of the same sex 24/ 7 their entire lives. again where is there abandonment?

    it is hard for me to understand how you can take romans 1:20 so lightly. do you actually personnally know anyone who is gay? have you gotten close enough to them so that you could give testimony about their hearts.

    how can anyone condemn anyone of sin unless they know the spirit that lives in their heart. even secular courts require witnesses of the character of the accused and the intent of his heart.


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